Friday, 5 February 2010

The Cost of Quangos - Reality

Recently a small discussion has occurred about the cost of quangos to the UK taxpayer and how abolishing them would lead largely to the scrapping of income tax. This is LPUK policy, although is it very vague as to the measures that would be used to lessen government spending and what areas. It's also two years out of date and ignores the huge hole we are now in.

However, quangos are highlighted. The numbers here are listed as £64 billion in 2006/7. In turn, the media have attempted to highlight this issue as costing £90 billion. This number is backed by the Taxpayers Alliance that states current spending is £64 billion. The small problem here is that the government numbers state that it was £34.5 billion, because they see certain key services that a techinically defined as quangos as being, well, key services.

All in all however, scrapping it would not make that much of a dent in the income tax receipts. Here you can find a list of all taxes received by HMRC as of December 2009, currently income tax measures £134.4 billion, a drop from above £147 billion in the years before and is about 38% of all taxes collected.

The expenditure on quangos, £34.5 billion, is equal to the tax raised through, roughly, corporation tax. Even at the £64 billion level that is still about two thirds of all national insurance receipts.

I don't agree with many quangos, but many do serve a purpose. On the Taxpayers Alliance list, bodies such as the Driving Standards Agency, OFSTED, the OFT, the Civil Aviation Authority, The Passport Service, the Office of Rail Regulation, and the UK Atomic Energy Authority are listed. Although these may be classified as quangos, and I don't for a minute doubt the waste caused, they do serve a purpose.

Indeed, many quangos are fundamental. The Police Complaints Commission may well have a serious problem controlling its budget, but its purpose is valid. It used to be that the police would investigate themselves, now they don't. To reverse that system would not in reality save any money at all, as the systems in place at the IPCC would simply have to be transferred in house.

The same goes with the Legal Services Authority, the provider of legal aid. It has seen it's spending lowered and its efficiencies increased, but again I don't doubt it could do better. But its purpose is incredibly important, that is the upholding a fundamental principal of English law and something that our entire culture is based upon - the right to legal representation in order to defend yourself from accusations.

Here's a spreadsheet of every quango in the country as classifed by the Alliance. Everything that comes under Law and the Courts is a quango it states. That includes the Land Registry, the Court Service, the Law Commission.

All the museums are listed, at a cost of £308 million, access to which is pretty central to many people. However, Education by itself takes up about £19 billion of the total.

Many quangos are totally pointless and are there for political reasons, such as equality, but at the same time they each take a relatively small amount of money. They should be scrapped, but the savings are minimal. Some, such as Education, the Scottish Executive, and Art could be largely gotten rid of. The Defence quangos add up to a near £9 billion, many of which could surely be merged or lost.

In fact, if you lost many of them, perhaps half the £65 billion would be saved, which is where the government figure comes from. After that you start going into territory where you are scrapping bodies that have been made independent for a reason, such impartiality or independence from government. They are classified as quangos, but in reality are services that any government would have to provide.

So, people are correct to rile against quangos, but the savings offered by getting rid of those that really aren't needed or wanted doesn't go anywhere near paying for the scrapping of income tax. In fact you would be looking at a short fall of about £70 billion. Put it this way, we're spending close to £30 billion a year just in interest payments.

Here I am not defending quangos. I think that many are a total waste of time and should be cut, many are grossly inefficient in the way they spend their money. However, reality needs to kick in when discussing a term like QUANGO, not just what it means, but what is classified as one. Many are classified as quangos simply because of the structure they have been given, but even if that were changed they would not be abolished because of the service they provide.

20 comments:

Obnoxio The Clown said...

Dare I say that this is a good point and that in light thereof, LPUK policy may have to change?

The whole situation is entirely different than it was when that policy was dreamed up.

But on the other hand, losing income tax and telling government departments that they'd have to cut their coats according to the new state of the cloth supply would still produce a good result all round. ;o)

Devil's Kitchen said...

That policy is under review—as I have said before.

However, I would like to point out that the TPA's list of QUANGOs is not exhaustive: it does not include, for instance, the Strategic Health Authorities or the PCTs which control some £120 billion of spending.

DK

P.S. By the way, is it really the case that "income tax measures £134,398 billion". Extraordinary.

Kevin Boatang said...

'Our' view has alwasy been that realistic move would be to cut income tax to a low figure, such as 15% flat and the hypothecation of national insurance amongst others.

I totally agre taht state spending must be drastically reduced both through the loss of probably 50% of the quangos above and then cutting of waste at Whitehall.

But it's a long and difficult process that must take into account pay outs as much as the savings.

Income tax is still the primary source of state revenue and their are many taxes taht I, and others, would see as unfair and/or too high that should be cut or lost as opposed to shelving income tax.

Local taxes are also difficult in a non-federal system.

J Demetriou said...

Nah, you must be a social democrat, KB. Big soppy thing. You don't want people forced into the street and made to eat rats twice a day?

You statist.

Vladimir said...

You wacky social democrats... Don't you realise that all of those essential services would be much better if they were outsourced to Tesco? :)

But really... optimisation is difficult. I'd guess that some of the more expensive quangos you speak of actually became quangos in an effort to reduce the costs. Scrapping them sounds excitingly radical but would probably be a disaster.

P.S. By the way, is it really the case that "income tax measures £134,398 billion".

Yeah, I wondered about that too. Is this £134.4bn?

Kevin Boatang said...

Ah yes, not £134,394 billion, simply £134.394 billion. It just seems like the former sometimes.

I shall edit forthwith, I shall ponder no longer and proceed with haste (stop it)

Shug Niggurath said...

Nah, it's in the interest of the modern political groupthink to classify the useful, desirable and despicable together as quangos, that way when we demand reform of one they can pull arguments out of their arses about why they need to be retained as is. Worse, they can add any devolution of the power we grant them at election time into it so that our votes do less and less.

They use quangos against us!

It's the same mindset that repeats the 'schools n 'ospitals' mantra whenever anyone has the temerity to suggest cuts in (tax) public spending.

Vladimir said...

Shug: good point. The system is deliberately designed to prevent reform, with essential services merged with ones that are useless, and others that have some use but are hardly essential. You can't attack one without attacking the whole thing.

Right now I am ranting about the NHS spending so much money on anti-smoking propaganda, particularly the "reality" Channel Five series "Celebrity Quitters" (I think that is the title.) The NHS actually sponsors the show, which cannot be cheap. It is Big Brother, but with less smoking and more self-righteousness. I am sure that Hitler would enjoy watching it.

This sort of twattery is exactly what we can do without. Wouldn't the money be better spent on doctors and MRI machines?

But what do you do? Central planning means that spending is politicised, so you end up with this sort of "mission creep". What's the solution, do you think?

Shug Niggurath said...

Are you not answering your own question just by asking it?

I think that libertarianism is really just complete decentralisation to the individual, the power for your day to day life devolved to you. So less centralisation in any social system has got to be to the benefit of the individual surely? Given that there MUST be a percentage of individuals who want spoon fed instead, libertarians tend to have philosophical, almost utopian, viewpoints. The reality is that there are probably too many individuals to organise a 'pure' libertarian society.

So here's the rub, those wacky social democrats think the opposite to be more desirable, puritanically thinking that people need protecting from their very selves. So it's only logical that they end up becoming micro managers and so thrive in the environments that are quangos, politics and the 'caring' services. It really doesn't occur to people like this that they have no business telling others what to do with their lives.

It's not that surprising (to me) to find that the things libertarians get so angry about tend to be these kind of things - quangos, social work services, and that Littlejohn staple, nappy outreach officers. I think that's why libertarians have no problem with trades unions - as they are voluntary schemes, but do have a problem with the TUC. That sound reasonable?

Kevin Boatang said...

Every time I turn on the TV or radio I get 'You.Will.Die'.

It's doing my fucking head in!

I'm going to die of fags (I gave up), of booze (I'm past my getting bungalowed phase), of speeding (well..), of eating, of breathing, of fucking looking that fucking cat at the incorrect distance.

And all this has increased since the economy went belly and Gordy went doolally.

Kevin Boatang said...

Shug, Very.

Well said that chap.

Obsidian said...

You're missing the underlying point of a quango - to insulate governments from making unpopular decisions and handling the consequences of those decisions.

Sure, there are quangoes with a useful purpose - and those can be folded back into the government where they belong.

Take NICE, the NHS has a finite budget so uncomfortable and unpopular decisions have to be made. The kind of decisions that may cost votes, so they outsource them.

The services they provide can be argued about, but the philosophy behind them - the evasion of responsibility - ought to be an anathema to any libertarian grouping.

Of course it maybe we deserve the squirming cunts, after all the evasion of responsibility by governments comes as a consequence of the public not being prepared to accept reality doesn't always come candy-coloured and sweet tasting...

Kevin Boatang said...

I think you may be missing the point in return. Many are removed from government os that government does not have direct control over them, such as complaints and investigations.

Many are pointless and are there to get round the democratic process, others though have also been removed from direct state control so that they are run better.

Obsidian said...

Run better? They're frequently used as jobs for the boys, and through some impressive financial jiggery-pokery make millions for their directors whilst still being firmly attached to taxpayers tit.

The DfID is the most egregious of the lot, but is hardly alone in being a pit of taxpayer-funded profiteering.

Meanwhile we have other groups, such as the Learning and Skills Council, who have had more than one debacle to their name, including the college construction cock-up last year.

Quangoes tend to adopt the worst elements of the public sector and the worst elements of the private sector. Hard to take any positives out them.

Shug Niggurath said...

That's partly my point KB, they use the ones that are required for the functioning of civic society as a Saddam like human shield to cover all the avaricious, puritanical and useless functions they want to micro manage me with.

My road to self describing myself as a libertarian began by wondering why every time the government sent me a message via the power of advertising it was always a stick. Never a carrot.

Kevin Boatang said...

Granted, but they aren't the quangos I was talking about, hence me saying the cost should be halved with their removal.

DK says that PCTs are quangos, so by your logic they would go back directly into the DoH.

Investigation bodies need to be outside of the bodies they are investigating for obvious reasons.

The DSA, for instance, it wouldn't make any difference if it were part of the Home Office or not.

Also, as is easily forgotten, many of these are actually chaired by the minister responsible, as opposed to the ones that should be scrapped and are 'stand-alone'. Many of these are actually prety well run.

I think we're talking at cross purposes here, I'm disagreeing with you, just that I am pointing out the decent ones and you focus on the shit ones I have already said in the article should be abolished.

Shug Niggurath said...

hehehe. That'll be drinking on a Saturday afternoon for you...

Yeah, I get the general point, if you remember Obo ran a poll of sorts which asked which elements of the state coulda shoulda woulda be ran privately under a libertarian system.

I'm a realist first, idealist second. I would LIKE pretty much all quangos to be pruned. I know that instead there are many that perform useful functions. I don't know enough to say if they are ran that well. Perhaps Vladimir is correct and we should be pushing for Tesco to run the good ones (:eek:)

The real underlying problem is, as ever, the political system. It's likely that the corruption there is the issue that makes quangocracy so bad in my eyes.

As it happens, I ticked about 15 boxes on Obo's poll, the consensus was less than that. Maybe I'm a social democrat too.

Kevin Boatang said...

Shrug, it's refreshing to meet a fellow libertarian who is also a fellow realist.

Welcome to the home of realist libertarians!

Dick Puddlecote said...

KB: "Every time I turn on the TV or radio I get 'You.Will.Die'.

It's doing my fucking head in!

I'm going to die of fags (I gave up), of booze (I'm past my getting bungalowed phase), of speeding (well..), of eating, of breathing, of fucking looking that fucking cat at the incorrect distance.

And all this has increased since the economy went belly and Gordy went doolally."


THIS! :-)

Shug Niggurath said...

Cheers Anon, it's really a shame that your automated script was unable to preparse the links, my left hand really didn't know what my right hand was doing there what with all the cut n paste followed by gleeful shoogling.