Here's a Libertarian quandary for you. Is it acceptable to libertarians that a schoolboy is suspended from school and punished, for selling 'Discos' crisps to fellow pupils on the blackmarket?
Well, while you're thinking about that, you might like to read this story in the Mail about just such an occurrence.
A 12 year old lad was caught doing this at Liverpool's Cardinal Heenan High School. According to Wikipedia, this school is a Comprehensive that specialises in Sports, Performing Arts and other extra curricular activities. Steven Gerrard is an ex-pupil.
So, a state-run shit hole, then. No doubt imbued with the usual post-60s left wing values and the corrupt social democratic agenda of the liberal elite that gets foisted onto the young fertile minds by a Socialist, Guardian reading Staff Room.
From the piece...
"...headmaster Dave Forshaw said parents and pupils must abide by the school rules or go elsewhere.
'We are a healthy school and proud of it,' he said.
'If parents are not happy then they are perfectly free to take their children to a school that allows pupils to sell these things..."
I have highlighted certain parts of the quote for a reason.
On the face of it, many libertarians, including myself, would take one look at this story and be disgusted at the outrageous, stupid and draconian authoritarianism of the school policy towards the entrepreneurial youngster. He was selling crisps, a fairly harmless food, to a market that was willing to participate in a voluntary and private exchange of wealth for product. No-one could ever be harmed by this action.
"Quick, pass me a credit card, I want to do a line of this shit before my Chemistry class with Miss Beck......... WOOOOOOO-HEEEEEEE!!!!!!"However, there is a strong strand of libertarianism that ardently defends the ultimate rights of the owner of a forum, property or establishment over the rights of the people that enter that sphere.
Many libertarians take the private property argument, and take it to the ultimate degree, defending it to the death. So a pub landlord could make up whatever rules he wishes, and punters would have to either obey, or go elsewhere. A landowner could allow, ban, build and behave exactly as he or she liked on their land, and the rights of whoever trespassed would be nullified.
I take a very different view. My libertarian beliefs are such that I cannot accept that it is right and liberal to bar people, on the basis that ownership of a building or land belongs to one person who is making up all the rules.
If you took this logic to the end, you will discover that the Nuremberg Trials of the '40s in Germany were false, and that the Nazi war criminals did nothing wrong, because they were acting according to Hitler's rules. Hitler owned Germany. Everyone within it had, under a sovereign state, pledged allegiance to the Fuhrer, and so whatever happened was just and permissible.
Is this acceptable to libertarians? Would this be justified in a libertarian country?If we are to accept fundamental rights, liberties and freedoms, they must apply to all people, wherever they may go and whatever they do, so long as they don't infringe on the rights of their fellow man. The lad who got suspended at the school harmed no-one, so in my eyes, the suspension was morally indefensible and a total infringement on his rights.
There is a twist here.
The school doesn't belong to the headmaster, does it? It is property of the state. The state's property, in effect, belongs to the people. The tax payer pays for it. So it could be argued that the private property argument no longer applies. The rules were made up by the Headmaster, probably in conjunction with school governors. They, in turn, derive their powers from educational authorities, who in turn get their powers from the government, who in turn is chosen by the people to represent them.
My guess is that private property obsessed libertarians would be likely to oppose the school's decision, even when considering the words of the school's headmaster. Because the question of private property rights does not exist.
Most libertarians, therefore, would probably disagree with the action taken by the school in this instance.
I believe that the banning of pupils selling crisps is a matter that should be decided by the public.
This is why my belief system is so heavily set up the fundamental importance of referenda. It is why I support the Swiss system, more direct democracy, more accountability and proper people power.It is why I have much time for strands of left-libertarian thinking, which caters more for the will of the people as a whole, rather than the desires and rights of one off individuals in one off positions of power and influence.
While I would always argue it wrong to ban pupils for selling crisps, taking all the factors here into account, the right and rational solution would be to put matters like this before the people.
My left and right wing libertarian ideals come together to effectively cancel each other out in terms of where I appear on the political spectrum. I am a centrist libertarian, not because I have fluffy middle of the road views, but because I am strongly opinionated except only by taking various ideas and fitting them together.
But Libertarians, of all hues, would diverge from the classic 'conservative', reactionary assessment of the crisp-dealing incident. A Daily Mail reader or a reactionary from the conservative right would either support the draconian punishment as the child broke established rules, or, they would oppose it on the basis that the school is probably lax on drug dealing or other wrongs and misdemeanors, and likely has a sex education policy which is morally wrong.
We would attack the authoritarian right position on both counts. Firstly, just because rules are in place, doesn't mean they are instantly right. Authority must be questioned, and sometimes, it is actually appropriate for children to do the piping up in dissent. The child was not suspended for disrupting a classroom and damaging the education of his peers. He was suspended unjustly. A child would be able to know that.
Secondly, just because a school might have a lot of bad policies and ideas about other things, doesn't automatically make the crisp dealing OK, because the crisp dealing must be a lesser wrong.
Of course, the crisp dealing is OK (I believe). But this is based on its own merit. It is based on an assessment of the case in hand, regardless of other considerations. The trouble with reactionary, social, moral and cultural conservatives, is that they so often play the game of moral equivalents in a very similar way that left wingers do about things like war and western imperialism.
You might despise a Headmaster for allowing sex education and the handing out of the pill and condoms and a whole host of other liberal measures. But that, in itself, cannot logically influence any given position or rule regarding the selling of Discos crisps. To win an argument, you have to take every scenario and question of liberty on its own merits.
Curiously, leftists would probably be divided on the decision to suspend the lad. Your younger, health and safety obsessed, social democratic weirdos (including the very political 'progressive' liberal chef Jamie Oliver) would be likely to agree with the suspension.
Their logic would dictate that obesity is bad. The role of the state is to solve things and intervene with rules and enforcement to make things happen. If you stopped people selling bad food to others, obesity and poor health would decline. Therefore the ends justify the means.
I also think that a lot of lefties, bar Marxist types who despise business and individual effort and initiative, would oppose the suspension for being too harsh and too silly.
I'd be interested to see the results of a survey that asked people for their opinion on the punishment meted out to the crisp-dealing 12 year old, whilst also asking them for information on their political persuasions. I am sure you'd find a link.
WTF!!!!!!!
Even I could tear that article apart.
And I'm not even that clever.
But I'm not even going to bother.......
Have fun guys!!!!
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(from a Guardian contributor...)
Wow. Wrong before you'd finished your first sentence. The legends are true.
Its not the "radical environmental movement" that says man-made climate change is happening and needs to be averted. Its not a few scientists who acted inappropriately either. Its the entire science of climatology.
There you go. Done in four paragraphs. One of which was yours, and two of which were me just mucking about. I can see why Obama had such an easy time last autumn.
- - - -
So there it was on the Guardian web-site, an article entitled "Boycott Copenhagen" by someone called Sarah Palin. And yes, it is THAT Sarah Palin, writing for the Guardian (kind of).
I'm looking forward to "Bring back Apartheid" by Nick Griffin.
I have to admit I'm a bit of a climate sceptic but with Palin on the sceptical side I'm inclined towards believing.
- - - -
Sarah, you're in no position to pronounce like this.
Your grasp of the science of climate change is even worse than your grasp of US politics, where your prominence is both deplorable and embarrassing.
Retreat to the homespun stables you came from and let your Warhol-like fame extinguish as it should: without recognition.
- - - -
Sarah please let it go. Do what John Mcain did after the campaign, and just go back to being a financial supporter of the Republican party. Even I support Obama going to this conference and see the need for climate change. Have a good day.- - - -
You've never articulated anything in your life, dear.
Advocating the boycott a climate conference is a new low...
- - - -
(this piece is a cracking example, written by one smug, pointless left winger in response to another poster...)
You have already proved yourself quite dissociated, Weaselmeister.
(she amuses me, but let's ignore that for now):
Lol
LOL
LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ROFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whassat? Eh?
Brazen Gall. Brazen
HAHAHAHAHA. I can shoot with the best of them, buddy boy.
And prettier, no doubt.
She knows more wealthy Republicans than we do?
Are you serious?
Even I get random posts removed from Monbiot's threads. But I don't whinge about it quite as much as the Deniers do.
And considering that they frequently write so much drivel, over and over again, until the thread becomes utterly impossible to read, then a few more deletions might well be in order.
- - - -
And so it goes on, and on, and on. The whole sorry 'discussion' is utterly unedifying and unseemly. As I said before, we don't agree with Palin. In fact, I am probably about as far away politically from Palin as most people could get. She is an authoritarian, social and moral conservative who believes in protectionism and a fierce defence of religion and patriotism. I am none of those things. I think she is an idiot, but this is based on words she has used and answers she has given to questions. It is based on fact and evidence, and on her policies.
The article she has written on climate change is not exactly Oscar Wilde in motion. It's not a great or particularly lucid piece. But the base points she makes are valid and they are based on a position that exists on climate change and a position held, not just by conservatives like her, but by many other people across the spectrum. Many of whom are very intelligent and in respectable professions.
Infuriatingly, not only are the few people who try to engage with her piece on CIF rude, insulting and bumptious in doing so, they make outrageous and arrogant claims that no-one relevant and no decent or sane expert agrees with the sceptic camp. Anyone who raises an objection, according to their logic, is either a madman, a freak or a right wing piece of shit.
Let me quote from a contribution by a long-standing CIF poster called 'Beautiful Burnout':
"...So what you are saying is that, after all these years, all the scientific research, all these scientists, even some oil companies who agree that climate change has to be addressed, they have all been duped by two guys in Norfolk, on the basis of some emails sent years and years ago. Damn, they must all be really thick, eh? Particularly as the information they were trying to suppress was actually published...
...
Aww bless. All those poor Mercans not able to drive around in their gas-guzzling 4 x 4s any more. Such a pity. It will be so hard for some people to have to travel in a vehicle that is smaller than their ego.
But lastly, and more importantly, you believe in The Rapture, Sarah. You believe that the Messiah will come again and the world will end. You are also one of the evangelicals who believe that, as a result of that, it doesn't matter if Man brings about the end of the world because, perversely, that means that you will force the Messiah to come and you will all be zapped up into heaven safe and sound before Armageddon. You also believe that the world is only 6,000 years old, and you have had a Nigerian witch-doctor/evangelical pastor who "casts out demons" lay his hands on you and bless you.
Which is why I just point and laugh."
Nice, eh? Lovely bit of bigotry and anti-Americanism chucked in there, for all those tolerant lefty readers of course.
I ask you, how much of that is argument and debate, and how much of it is ad hominem attack, laden with sneers and smears and condescension?
I'm not saying climate change advocates are wrong and that their points are invalid. I am saying that people who advocate different views should be heard. Palin is a prominent political person. Whatever you think of her and her other views and campaigns, she has written an article, and it expounds a position that is out there.
Why can't left leaning people engage with her arguments, without resorting to this kind of rampant abuse?
If you disagree with me, go ahead and read the comments. I dare you to find me a comment from someone that meaningfully addresses what Palin actually says, without resorting to some sort of underhand tactic.
I also dare you to challenge my view that this is a left wing phenomenon. Sure, centrists, libertarians, nationalists and conservatives, amongst others, are far from perfect in debate. But debate with non 'liberals' tends to be far more constructive, meaningful and polite.